A good friend of mine mentioned to me yesterday that people were still in quite a froth regarding the announced changes to the raiding landscape in Cataclysm. Specifically, it seems, people are mad that the same loot will drop in both 10 and 25 man versions of raids in Cataclysm. My friend and I had a rather lengthy discussion on the subject of the validity of all this complaining making the rounds, and I’d like to share some of the insights we came up with on the subject.
Before I dive right in, because this is a rather controversial topic, I feel it’s necessary to make a couple disclaimers. First, I’m going to be addressing popular opinion. (Note the distinction from fact.) As such, regardless of whatever I may say here, you are entitled to your opinion. It is yours, and I cannot take it from you.
That said, if you’re one of the multitudes complaining about the changes to raiding coming in Cataclysm, listen up. I’m about to put these upcoming changes into perspective.
The Source of the Problem
When you distill most of the arguments concerning the changes down to their purest essence, what they amount to is basically that people are mad that there will be a lack of justification in feelings of personal superiority. What I mean by this is hardcore raiders (who make up the majority of those doing the complaining) are mad that they won’t be beautiful and unique snowflakes anymore. For some, the impetus behind raiding is wanting not only to be the best, but to have others know you’re the best. To have others look at you and think, “Wow! That’s amazing! Maybe some day I’ll be that awesome!” They want that sense of awe directed at them and their accomplishments. Superior gear makes up the majority of this.
Now, there’s nothing wrong with wanting to feel special. It’s a natural human compulsion. However, let’s not misdirect our chagrin about no longer being beautiful and unique snowflakes at the very system that allowed us to become beautiful in the first place.
Let me explain what I mean by that.
Improved Accessibility Is Your Friend
Allow me, for just a moment, to turn back the clock about 7 years. World of Warcraft is but a glimmer in Blizzard’s eye and EverQuest is the order of the day. (This is of historical importance because much of World of Warcraft‘s early development was the direct result of EverQuest–WoW‘s lead designer then, Jeff “Tigole” Kaplan, was pulled in because of his experiences in EverQuest and what those experiences taught him about quality game development, particularly in regards to the end-game.) Because most of you are completely unfamiliar with the community and culture of EverQuest (though some of you are, and you’ll probably back me up on this), permit me to explain what life was like back then.
If you wanted to raid, there were only two paths of entry into the raiding scene in EverQuest:
- You had been playing since the game’s release
- You knew someone who had been playing since release
That was it. If you started playing years after the game’s initial launch and you didn’t know people who knew people, you were hosed. Plain and simple. Do not pass ‘Go’; do not collect $200. (Incidentally, this massive hurdle to entry played a large part in EverQuest‘s limited appeal.) It was nearly impossible for new players to cross the divide that spanned several years’ worth of content to catch up with the cutting edge, hardcore raid crowd. It just didn’t happen, unless you knew people who were at the cutting edge that were willing to put in the considerable effort to get you caught up.
Because this is the culture the lead designer originated from and was the only format for raiding anyone had ever seen before, WoW‘s initial raid scene was very similar. Those who were present during Classic will verify this. We had scaled down from the cumbersome 80-man encounters of EverQuest to more manageable 40-man and 20-man encounters, but the culture was still largely the same. If you didn’t start the race with the big kids or know some that would later vouch for you, you didn’t “break into” raiding in Classic.
The Hypocrisy of Complaint
Now let us fast-forward back to present day. We now have players that have been playing the game for a year or less that are experiencing the exact same content as some of the world’s most progressed guilds and players that have been with the game since it’s initial release. These new players were able to experience this content because of the conscious effort Blizzard has made to make their content available to a wider variety of players, both new and old, and these players are now the ones complaining about additional barriers to access being removed in the future.
Let me make something perfectly clear: in the majority of cases where people are complaining about the proposed changes, the very people doing the complaining would never have broken into the raiding scene in this game in the first place had it not been for Blizzard’s efforts to make content more accessible. The hypocrisy of it comes in where they’re railing about the very design philosophy that got them where they are today making it so that others can do the same in the future. Do you see what I’m getting at?
It has been Blizzard’s design philosophy from day one to make content ever more accessible to players.
More players were able to raid in Classic than in EverQuest because Blizzard made the barriers of entry into raiding easier to overcome than it’s predecessor. (Instead of having to find and appropriately gear 80 players, you only had to do that for 40.)
More players were able to raid in The Burning Crusade than in Classic because Blizzard made the barriers of entry into raiding easier to overcome than before. (Instead of having to find and appropriately gear 40 players, you only had to do that for 10 or 25.)
Even more players are able to raid in Wrath of the Lich King than in The Burning Crusade because Blizzard made the barriers of entry into raiding easier to overcome than before. (Instead of having to take the time to get 10 or 25 players attuned for raids, you could jump right into content as soon as you hit the level cap. Additionally, you could choose between 10 or 25 man formats without really missing any content.)
This has been a natural progression throughout the entire life span of World of Warcraft, and it was one of the founding principles of the game. This is by no means a recent development.
You’re Complaining About a Game You Already Missed
For those that are complaining about the changing face of the raid scene in World of Warcraft, you’re not really complaining about this game. You’re complaining about a game that already came and went. As we’ve established, accessibility has been a focus of Blizzard’s since day one. The game didn’t magically go down the shitter one day in the recent past, this is where the trail we blazed 6 years ago has been leading us all along. What you really want is not the game you’ve been playing, but the game this one came from, and you missed the boat on that already.
For the people complaining about the lack of exclusivity in this game these days, what you really want to be playing is EverQuest. That’s the game you really want. In EverQuest, raiding is truly meaningful and it’s a very exclusive club. If you’re in the absolute best gear in the game, you are looked upon with awe and envy. The problem is, that game is already dead, for all intents and purposes. If you tried to switch now, you’d be forever denied that which you most crave: to be king of the mountain, a god among men. Because you simply wouldn’t have access to the content you want to do, and you wouldn’t have a snowball’s chance in hell of ever having access to that content.
Which brings us right back to the hypocrisy of it all. You’re railing against that which allowed you to become what you are today.
Furthermore, no one is taking anything away from you. You’ll still be able to face the most challenging encounters in the game and you’ll still be able to get the best gear out there. The difference is only that the group of people who are able to achieve that ultimate goal isn’t as small as it used to be. The days of the Boys’ Club are long over.
So get over it and stop complaining.
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/applause
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/cheer
One quote with which I have a minor quibble, though: “What I mean by this is hardcore raiders (who make up the majority of those doing the complaining) are mad that they won’t be beautiful and unique snowflakes anymore.”
I have encountered several people who say they prefer 25-player raids over 10-player raids because they enjoy working with a larger group of people. It’s not about showing off loot to others; it’s about enjoying one group dynamic over another.
These players are terrified that most of the guilds catering to their needs will dissolve if the incentives to raid 25-player content rather than 10-player content are dramatically diminished. If the currently published Cataclysm changes go live, those incentives will indeed mostly disappear.
I worry (for their sake, not mine) that 25-player raiding will go the way of XP-capped level 70 raiding. Yes, it is in theory possible to round up 24 other like-minded individuals and pursue a goal that the vast majority of players do not share, but it is dramatically more difficult than “normal” raiding.
Thoughts?
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Others have mentioned this in the comments, and I’d like to make clear one thing before I continue (though it seems most realized this inherently): this post was not directed at those who have legitimate concerns about the switch; the ones who are genuinely concerned about the future of 25s.
That said, I’ll share my thoughts on those reactions.
I think that the people who are genuinely concerned about the future of 25s at least have good intentions. They’re not so much concerned about feelings of superiority as they are the future of a game design philosophy that they personally enjoy. As such, I think they have every right to be concerned. Who wouldn’t be, if the aspect of the game you loved most appeared to be in jeopardy?
However, I do think those concerns are a bit misplaced. The developers (despite popular opinion) are extremely intelligent. 25s would not go by the wayside unless that’s what the development team intended. And, if that were the case, rather than reduce incentives to participate in that content to the point where it’s no longer even worth the effort, the developers would simply cut it from the game entirely rather than waste their time focusing on tuning something they didn’t really want players doing in the first place.
In short: I believe people just need to have a little faith in the development team. They’ve been at this for years now, and while they may blunder from time to time, by and large they’ve been able to produce a fun and polished product. It’s clear they want 25s to survive, they just want to tune the experience a bit more.
25s will be just fine in Cataclysm. Those that want to run them may have some difficulty finding other like-minded individuals depending on just what the 10/25 split is in terms of individual preference, but it won’t be impossible. I think people overestimate the amount of trouble they’ll have with this. Meanwhile, those that don’t enjoy 25s will be free to run 10s without feeling like they’re missing out on anything.
I welcome the change.
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Great post! I am going to share this with my guild members.
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Very well argued. Couldn’t agree with you more. As one who beta tested both EverQuest and EverQuest II (as well as WoW), it’s my observation that if you started as much as 6 months after release (and probably not even that much) you were so far behind the power curve you’d never catch up.
Neil makes a good point, as well. While I enjoy both 10- and 25-man raids, the more forgiving nature of 25s makes them more enjoyable for me: I’m not “hardcore.” Dedicated, yes. I enjoy, for instance, the camaraderie of a 5-person healing group. I have yet to kill a final boss; don’t expect I ever will–so I’m hardly in the position of a unique, much less special, snowflake.
All that said, I welcome the changes with open arms. I never felt that the effort in a 10-man deserved less reward than that for a 25-man. If anything, I’m in the camp that believes 10s are generally more challenging.
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Most of the “old schoolers” I’ve spoken to (in fact, all of them, actually) are very excited about these changes. Of the crowd that used to raid at a hardcore level in EQ, most of them look forward to a more relaxed version that these changes will allow. Of course, that’s mostly attributed to self-interest. Most of those folks have kids and mortgages to worry about these days.
As I mentioned to Niel, I think the concern about the future of 25s is well-meaning, but misplaced. If Blizzard wanted them to go by the wayside, they wouldn’t even be included. Trust Blizzard to tune them such that there’s still plenty incentive for those that prefer them to run them.
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I’m one of the minority of raiders who’re not quite happy with the changes as announced so far who *have* been raiding long enough to have broken in the “old school” way (been raiding since about when BWL was added with no breaks save for leveling), though my complaints are less “Noes, my special gear!” and more concern for how many 25s raiders are going to bail for 10s because they’re easier to manage. Do I think 25-mans ought to have *something* to distinguish them from 10-mans? Yes. That’s 15 more ADD “OMG I know best” cats you’re trying to herd around, those raid leaders deserve more than 2.5x the headache to show for their efforts.
If not loot ilvl, then maybe achievements or feats of strength or something. Just not sure a few extra badge/tokens/points/whatevers and additional loot pieces are going to be enough for a lot of guilds.
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As Carrie points out below, we haven’t been told the whole story yet. Blizzard has given us a small preview of what to expect, but jumping the gun and saying 25s will be a thing of the past is like saying you know the ending of a book when you’re only 100 pages in.
Be patient and have faith. The developers will figure something out to make 25s attractive enough to keep those who enjoy them returning to them.
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Very well said!
I’m just going to add something I’ve said elsewhere, that I don’t think we have the full picture yet, and I think that people who are up in arms right now might want to just hang on a bit and see what information we get out of the Beta.
There may already BE extra rewards built in, not to mention we have no information yet on how the Guild reward system is going to work. Maybe you will get rewards from raiding 25′s if your team is completely made up of guildies. Not only does this provide extra stuff for doing 25′s, but I think it will help those who really enjoy 25′s to come together to do so, rather than make people feel like they HAVE to do 25′s to get what they want.
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This is an excellent point that I think many miss or conveniently forget. The information we have in hand now is but the tip of the iceberg. Blizzard mentioned adding more loot to 25s as a means of reassuring us that they fully intend to make sure there are plenty of incentives to run 25s for those that really want to so that it doesn’t become a waste of time. But, that’s likely not all they have in store for them, and people need to keep that fact in mind.
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I agree, Carrie. I suspect 25s will add oomph to guild rewards.
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I don’t care about loot differences. I am concerned that 25mans will fold and 10mans will be all about cliques. And I honestly like a night with 3 or 4 hunters in the raid. That will not happen with 10mans.
So why 10mans? Well, most of the hard[er] core players will get to 85 sooner and get geared sooner and raid sooner. Will they raid in 25mans? Heck no. Will they want to stop raiding their 10mans and switch to 25mans? It would seem to be a tough pill to swallow.
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Great post and hits the nail on the head.
People want to be “elite”, to be the 20% other 80% looks upon in awe. When the game wants to switch ratios to for example 50:50 they cry and rage they became less of an elite than before.
However if the game keeps 20:80 (or even more “elite” design) by the rule of statistics a lot of those wannabe “elite” end up in the 80% of “grey mass” instead.
And then they cry and rage that the game is unfair, that they deserve equal treatment and the artificial hurdles should be removed.
People would love to be “nobility”, having rights from “being born as noble” and “coming here first” rather than skill and effort. Because birth-rights don’t require any effort of your own, you’re just born as, and forever get special treatment. The problem is if everyone is “born as noble” then nobility is worthless and makes no sense. If only small minority is “born as noble” you have lower chance to be a noble than not.
Another example: do you like pyramid schemes? As the time passes, the pyramid builds vertically from the bottom, so you have more and more people below you. But you’ll never catch the top, it’s simply impossible. Unless they retire, you can never surpass them. It’s just fixed position.
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Maybe I read different commentary than you and your friend, but from what I’ve seen the majority of the QQ does not come from the “special snowflake” 25 man raiders who are mad that 10s will be getting the same loot. A lot of people, myself included, are happy about this part of the change. As a few people say above, the worry is that people to be disinclined to run 25 mans if the rewards are drastically reduced. This will make running and recruiting for 25s much harder and people are afraid that their favoured method of raiding will become even more difficult to coordinate.
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I was a hardcore raider from Molten Core to Sunwell but retired for WotLK. Due to that fact I think I’m in a growing minority of people — hardcore Pugger. We take the game as serious as anyone but we just don’t want to be tied to our PC 3-4 nights a week and like the freedom we get by pugging content. While I think 25 man raiding is going to take a big hit in Cataclysm I think the day of non-guild PuGs are going to take the biggest hit as people will be a lot more careful with only one chance to run dungeons.
The game is moving to a more casual raiding style and I have a love/hate feeling about the whole thing. I really do miss the days of the past when there were 40 of us working together to try to kill a boss like Nefarion. 10 people vs the Lich King just isn’t the same. I know those days are gone forever but perhaps Cataclysm will allow for the return of 40 man outdoor bosses. Maybe that would give us the best of both worlds.
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Any one who says the need an incentive (ie better loot) to run 25′s isn’t running them for the love of 25′s. There is nothing in the raid changes, in and of themselves, that will doom 25′s. The only thing that will doom 25′s is if the majority of folks who “enjoyed them for their complexity” are really just in it for the gilt. it’s in your hands folks.
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I’m thinking that this is not about removing the incentives to run 25′s, but rather about changing those incentives to ones that don’t keep the less hardcore players from experiencing the full content that they’re paying for each month. Considering this game is a paid one, one customer’s dollar (or Euro) should be worth exactly the same as any other’s as far as how much content it purchases.
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As I am in a guild who regularly runs 10 mans and getting 2 groups (with 1 or 2 pugs if needed) for raiding, this development would dissapoint me. This is due to the fact that similair loot would not push us, as a guild, to get 25-man running as much i would like us to be/ like we are pushing towards it now.That and (if i informed myself well (which i am not totally sure about, concerning this subject)) 10 and 25 have the same ‘timer’ in which you wouldnt be able to do both. Thats basicly my cons towards these changes. Havent had much attention to find some good pros. But i’m somewhere in the middle of the crowd. Not really in favor, neither really against it either.
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By all accounts, 10 and 25 man aren’t drastically different to run (as a single member of a team). And Blizzard is working to make that even more so. They are harder to organize and might have longer wait times due to the increased number of people. So, therefore, the rewards for participating should be similar, but the rewards for _organizing_ should be much greater for 25 mans.
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A downside I see to all this is a reduction in spontaneity. A single lockout means that one would be loathe to attend a PUG if there is even a possibility that your guild might run the same content. And pugs will be less apt to join a group unless they are assured that there single lockout won’t be wasted. We might well see 9 people posting gear scores to convince one pug to join then rather than the other way around.
The way to get more people to see the content is to have more overall runs through the content.
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Great article…agree completely
BUT…the problem I see is not the gear being equal is that they share a lockout. I have been geared and ready for ICC since release and just in the last 4 – 6 weeks got to start raiding. I see this change bringing about a terrible unintended consequence. There will be DRASTIC drop off in pug raids which will make raid content even more inaccessble than before. It is impossible for me to commit to a fixed time a couple days a week so I need to pug. Now that a lot of guilds are experienced in ICC the members pug either the 10 or 25 successfully on their main or mostly on an alt. Thanks to Bliz letting me getting good enough gear(not just badge but crafted and lesser raid gear) I eventually get into to one(not going to address the achievement hurdle here). Now I am able to pug more regularly. Here is the problem – with eliminating half the raids a single toon can do you will have far less of the expereinced players needing a pug.
Ex.
-John has 3 descently geared level 80 toons
-Can do 6 ICC runs
-He takes his main with his guild through 10-25
– Eventually runs with an alt in another team or
with guildies in a 10 and/or 25
– He now has now done 3 or 4 out 6 ICC runs
he can do
Under current system:
He pugs Successfully with a cross between
other experienced raiders and newer raiders
2 or 3 times
Under Cataclysm system
He can ONLY run ICC 3 times so he NEVER pugs
Even the experienced raider who have more 80s than teams to run with will NOT pug because the pugs are filled with too many inexperienced palyers and they never accomplish anything. Right now it is uncommon for a pug to get past Festergut and extremely rare to get past Putricide(never heard of one).
Even worse, a lot of the newer 10 man teams out there had atleast a couple people who got experience and ICC gear from a pug that made their team work in the beginning.
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Didn’t proofread…I know there are grammar errors.
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Great discussion.
Could it be a hardware issue?
Right now, in every ICC-25, there will be at least one brave person who complains about latency and frame rates. There are probably five or more who lag, but won’t admit it for fear of being kicked, effectively reducing the raid size to twenty or so.
Hopefully, Blizz will improve the graphics in Cataclysm, demanding MORE from our graphics cards, internet connection speeds, et. al. Good gameplay plus eye candy wins for us and (NASDAQ) ATVI. Disclaimer….I own stock in this company.
I know…you can buy US$ 5K “gaming rigs” to play WoW and pay extra for faster net connections. Should processor speed (a.k.a. graphics score) be as important as gear score?
The proposed new raid loot system reduces the need to have the latest, greatest hardware to obtain what Scorpia, twenty years ago, used to call, “The Very Best Stuff.” See the nobility post above….lol.
If we get the loot and can enjoy the look-and-feel in 10-man raids, it’s good for us and for business.
Just my (US) $0.02
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I kinda see your point but at the moment in many pugs and even in guild runs we refer to the lag card being played. ie. somebody saying in /raid “sorry I messed up its like a slide show in here”
It’s generally to disguise the fact that they’ve made a mistake.
Whilst I realise you want better gaming rigs built because it means your stock will rise, the chances are that although there might be a minor upgrade as there was in TBC, there’s not exactly much they can do. In fact allowing 10man the same loot means a lot of players will never have the problems that 25mans have and so won’t upgrade.
The sad fact is if you do a little work, maybe spend a little bit of money – you can run just fine on an older rig. I ran till halfway through TBC with a terribly old machine basically by using the slimmest amount of addons and a couple of reg edits.
and again – GS is worthless as is RigScore, to paraphrase “its not how big it is, its how you use it” :p
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I’m totally on your side in the skill vs. hardware/gear, issue, as you say, to a point…
As a former bike racer, whenever some kid would roll up with a full Campy, custom framed bike, we’d just shrug…Nice looking, but it’s the motor, not the machine that counts…to a point.
I try and keep my 2/yo HP DV-7 1020us up to date as far as drivers (nVIDIA 9600m-GT)… But I could fry an egg on the lower left corner in WoW. And (hanging head in shame…I DC’d TWICE on Putricide TEN MAN last night…really let the group down, though nobody came out and said anything…publicly).
Might be an idea for a new thread…hardware requirements in the real world… Went to buy Fallout-2 over the Holidays… The guy in Gamespot made sure to emphasize the on-box requirements because he wouldn’t accept it for a return if it didn’t run.
As for folks who, right off the bat, whine about their slideshows on ICC trash…well, that’s a warning sign that the raid leader gets paid the big bucks to ajudicate…lol…really pisses me off why someone with constant slide shows/DCs feels the need to pull the whole group down with him.
Has anyone seen any forums/threads on hardware?
Again, great discussion…
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Double check those “updated” drivers on your Nvidia Alobarr. I seem to recall a bad update going out for the 9600s that was in fact causing amazing overheating issues in Wow. It has been fixed in the latest as far as I know. Unless I read your comment wrong, in which case ignore this.
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Thanks!
nVidia’s site says I have the latest/greatest, dated 3/10/2010.
HOWEVER…two days ago, a window appeared mysteriously after exiting WoW, yelling at me for having sucky 3D acceleraton because I lack the latest DirectX 9C version, which I promptly DL’d and installed from Microsoft.
Fingers crossed, things seem better…still keep the puter perched up on a cookie cooling rack.
Now to get the courage to make the switch to Marks…lol
Thanks again!
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Good blog by Lassirra (as per ususal) and good discussion.
This is incredibly off topic, and I apologize for that, but I just heard the sungle funniest line I can recall in Trade Chat.
Some apparently single fella was bragging how the girls he knows are drawn to accomplished WOW players.
Some dry wit said
“Oh having shoulder armor the size of a planet gets you laid alot does it?”
To each their own in humor, but I couldn’t stop laughing.
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Perhaps, to keep people interested in 25 man raiding should the change go ahead, would be to reward players in a slightly different way.
You’ve got it; achievements!
Titles, mounts, pets, other random bits and bobs that you can use, etc.
That way the people in the mindset of ‘oooh look how leet I am!’ can still have their ego stroked in some fashion.
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BUT…the problem I see is not the gear being equal is that they share a lockout. I have been geared and ready for ICC since release and just in the last 4 – 6 weeks got to start raiding. I see this change bringing about a terrible unintended consequence. There will be DRASTIC drop off in pug raids which will make raid content even more inaccessble than before. It is impossible for me to commit to a fixed time a couple days a week so I need to pug. Now that a lot of guilds are experienced in ICC the members pug either the 10 or 25 successfully on their main or mostly on an alt. Thanks to Bliz letting me getting good enough gear(not just badge but crafted and lesser raid gear) I eventually get into to one(not going to address the achievement hurdle here). Now I am able to pug more regularly. Here is the problem – with eliminating half the raids a single toon can do you will have far less of the expereinced players needing a pug.
+1
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Speaking as someone who has been semi hardcore this is more probably going to kill enthusiasm for that playstyle. I’d like to state at the start of this longwinded and possibly offensive rant that the cata changes to me personally are fine – I’m going casual in cata due to my career and workload taking more and more of my focus.
I started playing at the end of Vanilla and over time have played more and more. I recognise that this isn’t always healthy. This could be a positive for many players from that perspective.
All I’m saying is what’s the point in raiding hardcore if there’s nothing to differentiate you from other players. We don’t see any extra content and we don’t get any special gear any more.
I’m in pretty good gear – but most of my gear is achieveable by somebody doing a 10 or 25man on normal a week (hell – almost all of mine is available doing the first 4bosses). Even though I’m gathering 277s the extra hours I spend a week to get to this point – and the hours I spend bashing my head against LKHM are becoming less and less worth it. Especially if in a couple months time it becomes the stuff people buy for badges. Simply put – its not special if a large number of people do it and it dilutes the sense of achievement.
It’s not just the “Waaaa I can’t be an internet superstar” factor though. In TBC the badge gear only got you so far and it meant when you did eventually push through the attunements etc your guild immediately got rewarded. It was maybe a little too challenging but its gone a little far the other way to my mind. The TBCbadge gear meant it separated the good focused players to the “put the highest ilvl in the slot” players because you the content was hard enough by default to prevent slacking. Now you have fail pugs with ridiculously high gearscore requirements because all they value is ilvl – not whether you’re any good.
The game is also too accesible now. Why learn to play your class when its handed to you? Look at heroics – why the hell are they used to farm badges for current content if they’re so easy that a new player can level and gear to raid content without ever actually having to learn how to use all of their abilities.
Don’t get me wrong I think it’s great I can pick up an alt and be raid ready in a week after dinging. But at what cost to the larger community?
My main worries are going to be getting a regular 10man and whether cliques form again within larger guilds. That and getting saved to a group and then not getting to raid the rest of the week
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