In our last post, we talked about a player’s right to choose their own spec depending on what they hope to get out of this game. What a lot of people got out of the article was that it’s okay to be casual (and it is), but what people don’t realize sometimes is that it’s also okay to be hardcore. Because much of the player community is casual, it’s easy to develop a mob mentality towards those “gearscore-toting elitist jerkwads”, especially when one of them just told you that you’re not allowed to play with the big kids. However, most casual players will never truly understand what it means to be hardcore and they can’t understand why they’re not allowed to join in the fun. After all, your gear is decent, isn’t it? You’re pulling down respectable numbers, aren’t you? So why can’t you go with them? Today, I’m going to spend some time explaining how the mind of a hardcore raid leader works.
Herding Cats
If you ask a raid leader what it’s like to do their job, in most cases they will grunt, groan, sigh with resignation and tell you “It’s a lot like herding cats”. Imagine yourself in a room full of screaming five year olds, all wanting your attention and all wanting different (and often conflicting) things that often have no basis in rational thought, and you begin to get an inkling of what being a raid leader is like.
Casual players often make the mistake of assuming that hardcore guilds run like well-oiled machines. In some cases, I’m sure that’s true, but not in most. Most hardcore guilds come with the same baggage casual guilds do: drama, favoritism, arrogance, loot arguments, and so forth. In fact, it could be argued that hardcore guilds have it worse in this regard. Why? Because emotion tends to run high when you get 25 disparate people all feeling a sense of entitlement because they’ve all worked very hard to get where they are.
Additionally, the expectations placed on a raid leader are extremely high. Raid leaders are expected to know every single class in the game inside and out. Why? So they can make informed decisions about who to bench that week, or who deserves what piece of loot the most, or how Mage X could stand to improve their spell rotation, or why Tank B just exploded in a fiery ball of death and destruction when all of the healers were still alive and healing them, or where the hell those 40 adds just came from, or OH GOD THE PALLY JUST PULLED THE ENTIRE NEXT ROOM! WIPE! JUST WIPE IT! OH GOD!!
You begin to see why these people are usually extremely high-strung.
Raid leaders are expected to know every class, every fight, every drop. And that’s on top of playing their own character at a hardcore level. Raid leaders have to know when to hold ‘em, know when to fold ‘em, know when to wa– sorry. Got sidetracked.
My point is, raid leaders have to do everything the average player has to do… for 25+ other people and themselves. They also have to work out the logistics of scheduling and populating raids, which doesn’t sound difficult on the surface, but if you’ve ever tried throwing a PuG raid together, you sort of get a feel for what it can be like to do that every week. You get about a dozen people whispering you back and forth constantly, asking what gear set to bring, what spec they should use, who else is going, what bosses they’ll be focusing on, what the strategies are, what loot will drop, etc etc ad infinitum.
And let me tell you a little secret: I have not adequately captured the experience in words. It’s actually much, much worse than this, but it defies description. Just think about the most frustrated you’ve ever been in your life, multiply that by about 30, and now think about feeling that way every single time you raid. That’s probably pretty accurate.
Goosestep to My Tune
Now, having explained to you what a day in the life of a raid leader is like, you can begin to understand why:
- These people are insane
- These people are assholes
- These people have the shortest tempers on the planet
It’s not because they like or want to be like that, but because the crazy retard raiding circus has made them that way. Truly told, most people that end up becoming raid leaders were at one point some of the nicest people you ever could have met. They showed up on time, they were considerate of others, they brought consumables for themselves and others, they offered help to guildmates when it was needed, etc. And you know what? That’s exactly how those people got wrangled into being raid leaders in the first place. They put in some extra effort, and as a result, they get the thankless job of herding cats every week.
Which leads me to how we got to the “my way or the highway” mentality.
If you had on your plate the same amount of crap as a raid leader has to deal with every time they log in, you’d probably get pretty short-tempered too.
When a raid leader is newly minted, they will try to be accommodating just as they had always been. They will make sure everyone is happy, or at the very least feels like everything is fair. They will go out of their way to make sure the feelings of all their raiders are taken into consideration.
Right up until the first wipe.
When a raid fails, especially under new leadership, the first responses from players is to:
- Blame the raid leader (after all, they were the one calling the shots)
- Offer their advice (because clearly something went wrong)
Now, get 24 people all suggesting a different approach to a fight because the raid leader is clearly a window-licking moron (nevermind the fact that the raid would not exist in the first place if not for that person’s hard work), and I’m sure you can see how that can develop into “sit down, shut up, and do what I tell you”.
Without a heavy hand to guide things, players will quickly turn to bickering. Things will get out of control, and nothing will ever get done. Most players have seen this happen: you get about five people on vent all arguing about how a certain boss fight should be done, while the other 20 people stand there with thumbs in rectums, maybe busting out emotes and non-combat pets just to break up the monotony and ease some of the resentment of being made to stand there doing nothing for 20 minutes because people can’t decide what the heck is going on.
If you don’t have a raid leader that is willing to say “Enough. It’s time to get things done, and we’re going to do it my way.” you’ll see more and more of that same scenario.
It’s All About the Bottom Line
We now understand what raid leaders have to deal with and how they came to the mentality they demonstrate, but how does that affect the average player? Well, as we’ve seen, most players want to play the spec they want to play come hell or high water. That’s perfectly fine if you’re not in a progression-oriented guild. However, a hardcore raid leader is going to tell you to respec or go home.
Why? Because they have enough other crap to deal with, they don’t need to baby-sit you on top of everything else.
In a raid, it doesn’t matter if you can trap 30 mobs simultaneously. You don’t have to. In a raid, it doesn’t matter if you can kite. You don’t have to. There are two exceptions to that in all 53 raid encounters in this expansion. That’s 3% of the time where kiting could be used. It’s not a major concern to raid leaders. All that matters to a raid leader is whether or not you’re above the tanks on the damage meter, and by how much.
That being said, you might be thinking to yourself “Well, as BM I’m way above the tanks! Sometimes I even out-dps people in better gear than me!”
Fine and dandy. Give yourself a pat on the back. But guess what? Your raid leader doesn’t care.
Want to know what your raid leader cares about? Whether or not you’re bringing as much dps as you possibly can. Want to know what else? Your raid leader is well aware that Marksmanship and Survival will perform better. They don’t care how, they just know that it’s true.
Your raid leader is aware of what spec performs the best for each dps class in the game. They may not know why each spec is considered the best, but they don’t care about that part. All this information means to them is that when someone comes to them asking how to improve or they notice someone not performing up to expectations, the first thing they’ll do is go look at talents and then say “Oh. You need to be spec’d to X.”
The reason they do this is because they don’t have the time or patience to argue about it with people. Raid leaders see this as very cut and dry, and whatever rationalizations you have for your spec are irrelevant to them. If they let everyone spec however they wanted to, they’d have a raid that didn’t get anywhere because collectively you’re throwing a ton of dps out the window just because you wanted a giant stompy dinosaur or something.
Remember how I mentioned earlier that raid leaders are nice people that want things to be fair? That’s still true, to a certain extent. A person’s entire personality doesn’t change just because they’ve had a big responsibility foisted upon them. Your raid leader wants things to be fair when that luxury is available to them. Want to know how your raid leader makes things fair? They set the same expectations for everyone: you will use the best spec for your chosen role. Everyone will. No exceptions. Because if they make an exception for your laser kitty, they have to make an exception for everyone, and in so doing, they just threw several thousand dps out the window and now Oops! bosses aren’t dying, and they’re getting blamed for it.
Your raid leader’s primary goal is to make sure the raid is successful. That’s their job. If that means having to be a complete dickwad in the process, a lot of them are willing to be the bad guy just to make sure shit gets done. If they relent, people will take advantage of them.
Your Permissive Raid Leader is the Exception, Not the Rule
If you have a raid leader that is willing to let people spec however they want, consider yourself lucky. Most hardcore raid leaders won’t allow it, for the reasons outlined above.
Permissive raid leaders have a very distinct attitude: as long as bosses die, it doesn’t matter how it happened.
What separates these raid leaders from a lot of others is priorities. Most raid leaders want things to be as smooth and efficient as possible because it lightens their own load. That’s why a lot of raid leaders will be jack-booted nazis about how people are allowed to spec. They already have enough to deal with, they don’t want to have to keep track of how so-and-so is spec’d this week on top of everything else. Permissive raid leaders, on the other hand, are willing to take on this added responsibility so that their players can have fun in the process.
The fact that you’re allowed to spec however you want means additional work for your raid leader. If you have a raid leader that allows you to spec however you want, be sure to thank them. You’re having more fun because they’re willing to have even less.
The Road to Understanding
Now that you understand the sheer volume of HOLY SHITBALLS that can go into being a raid leader, and even just a regular hardcore player, I hope that casuals will come to be a bit more understanding of the hardcore mindset.
I see a lot of bickering between the two factions, casual vs hardcore. Casuals complain that hardcore players are being dictators, hardcore players gripe that casuals have no idea what goes into what they do. Both are correct. The other side has very limited understanding of what it means to be what you are.
If you’re a casual player and you find yourself confronted with a hardcore player that’s being an elitist dick, take a minute to understand where they’re coming from. They’re under an extreme amount of pressure every single day to perform, and if they don’t perform, they have to worry about whether or not they’ll be cut from the team. They’re resentful of your freedom to do as you please, despite the fact that the work they’re doing allows them to enjoy the game how they like.
If you’re a hardcore player and you find yourself continually frustrated by casual players, take a minute to understand their perspective as well. They don’t always see the hard work that goes into playing the game the way you do. Instead, they see you in similar gear getting to experience higher-end content and don’t understand why they can’t see that content too. They’re jealous because you’ll be bored of fights they’ll never even see.
In the five years I’ve been playing this game, I’ve been a casual player, a hardcore player, a hardcore raid leader, a casual raid leader, and back to casual player again. I’ve been given the opportunity to see both sides of the coin, each having their own unique trials and rewards. No method is more valid than another and each has their own mindset. Try to be more understanding of those that play the game differently than you and perhaps we’ll be able to get back to that sense of community we all started this game with.
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I *love* this post. So much, I’m going to link to it in our guild forums. We’re a casual (very, due to scheduling conflicts) 10-man guild. I’m also the reluctant RL, leaning more toward the “Permissive” set. Starting to catch myself being a dickwad in vent when we wipe to stuff we shouldn’t tho…
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There’s a difference between being firm and being a dickhead. You can enforce rules and order without being a jerk, but it is a thin line to walk, especially if there’s potential that you could lose friends in the process.
It’s important to make it clear from the onset that, even if you are casual, you want the raids you do set up to be focused and efficient. For example, chatter is fine on vent during trash but should be kept clear for leadership calls during boss fights. Or that it’s expected for people signed up to raid to be ready to zone in 15 minutes before scheduled start time, so that there’s no waiting around to get started.
Making the distinctions between general policy and “raid time” policy well in advance and very clear-cut is something a lot of casual guilds neglect to do, but it can really help clear up confusion and avoid unnecessary down-time.
Time management is just as important for casual guilds as it is for hardcore guilds, if not more so because players have less time to spend focusing on peripheral raid duties (like farming consumables, for example).
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This post needed to be written. Thank you.
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Great piece of work. Keep it up.
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im sorry but most so called hardcore players ive ran into in wow are most of the time little kids who just like to act like they are great players when in fact most of the time they suck. now i play the game alot alittle to much if you ask me about 7 or 8 hours a day does that make me a casual player or a hardcore player im not in end game gear so that makes me a casual player im sure.
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I’d like to avoid sweeping generalizations that can potentially upset and/or alienate an entire demographic of the game in the comments section in the future. The wrap-up of this post was centered around understanding the perspective of people who play the game differently, and I was a bit shocked to see someone respond with such venom towards other players.
I have no problem with complaints and the like about things people have experienced in game, but comments calling other players “little kids” or saying outright that a large group of players tend to suck is a bit inflammatory and I’d rather avoid the comments section here turning into a flamefest like the official game forums.
I appreciate your point of view, but I hope you understand the point I’m trying to make here.
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/cheer
This post is a perfect depiction of what progression raiding is like for a raid leader. Progression raiding is a team sport not unlike baseball, basketball, or lacrosse. In order for the team to be successful, everyone needs to be willing to do what is necessary for the team.
I think casual players are awesome, they are in the game for the sheer joy of playing. They do have a legitimate beef with *some* progression raiders. *Some* are asshats. However, we need to be careful not to paint all progression raiders with the same brush. Not all of us are asshats.
Progression raiders are on the forefront of the WoW community. They understand their class and how that class needs to operate in an end-game setting. Preparation in terms of farming, reading blogs, and watching strategy videos are not options; they are absolute requirements. If they do not perform, they will be put on the bench and not see some content until it is on farm. Any athlete hates the bench, progression raiders are no different.
Both casual players and progression raiders have a purpose in playing the game. One is not better than the other. They are just different. Please be careful in making absolute statements about either chosen play style.
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You get to the crux of what I’d hoped to convey with this article: yes, some hardcore raiders are jerks, but not all of them are, and it’s easy to see how the ones that are got to be that way.
The casual crowd has a habit of espousing a mob mentality towards hardcore raiders from time to time that is eerily akin to angry villagers waving pitchforks all the while screaming that it’s okay to be casual. And they’re right, it is okay to be casual. Most players are. However, they fail to realize that they’re doing the same thing they complain about: harassing someone else because of their choice of play style. It’s okay to be hardcore too, and casuals need to understand that as well.
That doesn’t excuse some of the behavior demonstrated by hardcore players, but two wrongs don’t make a right, either, and understanding has to start somewhere.
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A very nice post indeed.
This was the first time I have read something about someone else’s perspective on hard core raid leaders, and the contrast between casuals and hard cores. Now while I will preface this with the fact that I consider myself a hard core raid leader, tank, and guild leader in a top end guild, I think that there are a few things to consider here. I love the post and i think that for the most part you are right, but it also has to be understood that some of the elitism is unnecessary no matter what you have on your plate.
If you run into these “elitists” in a raid weekly, heroic daily, or anywhere else, it is important to understand that they are doing this as a “job.” I never want to step foot in any instance other than ICC, however I must, I have spent well over 500 badges and still need over 300 to go. We are running stuff because we have to, because we min/max, because balancing stats is essential to our end goals.
in addition, Leading a raid can not be done by one person, it is just too much. While one person is the voice of the leadership corps, they are not the only one with the ability to drive the raid. Our guild has one raid leader, and while he is probably the least knowledgeable of the ins and outs of classes, mechanics, etc, he is very good at the ancillary leadership methods. He, and the rest of our officer corps relies on the knowledge of the group to drive the results.
Also, being a hard core raider, and one of the “best in the world” does not give anyone the excuse to be a dick. I still answer every single whisper from random casuals as i do from my own tanks. Now while I understand that something like this is not the norm, it is important to understand that there is a huge player base in this game and if you dont like what someone is selling, dont buy it.
You have inspired me, blog post number two of the day is coming up.
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That’s something casuals don’t always realize: that farming heroics, etc is a job to hardcore players. They’re not there because it just seemed like a really fun idea at the time. As a result, it’s easy to see why hardcore players get impatient with casuals. Hardcore players want to get in, get their emblems, and get out as efficiently as possible so they can get into another run for more badges. What ends up happening is you get a group of people working at cross purposes: the casuals trying to enjoy the instance and the hardcores just trying to get through the place as quickly as possible.
As a result, it’s no wonder that tempers fray and people start sniping at each other.
As you mention, just because you’re hardcore doesn’t give a person free license to treat others poorly. In retrospect, I think I didn’t stress that point enough in this post. I was hoping the combination of this post and the previous one would balance each other out, but perhaps not. My focus here was primarily to acknowledge that, yes, some hardcore players can be dicks, but it’s very easy to understand why that might be given the amount of stress they experience on a daily basis. That doesn’t excuse that behavior, but does provide a reason for it. If casuals can acknowledge and understand that stress rather than respond with a knee-jerk reaction to it, I think the situation would improve quite a bit, just as it would improve if hardcore players would take a moment to consider that someone else has different goals in the game from theirs.
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I really like this. I used to be in a 25-man raiding guild as an officer, though not the raid leader. But as someone who SAW what was happening to our otherwise very friendly raid leaders, I knew I would never want to be a 25-man raid leader.
I lead 10-mans these days and those are quite enough, thanks.
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The job is an absolute nightmare, it really is. Some people have a knack for getting the job foisted upon them without meaning to, and it’s horrible to watch because the stress can really wear a person down very quickly if they’re not prepared for it.
Having done it myself and seen what happened as a result, it’s not a job I would jump at in the future. The only way I would willingly become a raid leader again is if it were the only way I could raid again at all. Some people see the stress as a good trade-off for the rewards of the position (never having to worry about getting a spot again, for example), but not me. I’d rather let someone else deal with that mess.
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Let me first say that I have the utmost respect for raid leaders. Sure, there are some jerks but by and large, my hat goes off to those that take on such an arduous task for (cough) fun. Guilds abuse their RLs something awful so, I can understand and respect their frustration.
I have never had an issue with the hardcore guild having hardcore standards. In another thread I mentioned that it seems as though guilds are evolving from Hardcore-Casual-Social to Hardcore-Wannabe-Social. It’s the “wannabe” that I take issue with. If you bill your guild as casual, “be casual”. If you want to be hardcore, “be hardcore”. No group functions well for long if they don’t stay true to their principles.
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That’s something a lot of new guilds struggle with: “We’re casual!” (but not) or “We’re hardcore!” (but not). I’ve seen it happen again and again, and it usually results in the guild disbanding.
I think guilds start out saying they’re casual (even though they don’t really want to be) for two reasons: 1- to increase the recruitment pool they can draw from and 2- because they’re afraid to say they’re hardcore at first. After all, what if they fail? Or the guild doesn’t go anywhere? Or they’re not really geared enough to attract other hardcore players yet, even though that’s really the play style they favor?
There are definitely reasons for it, and sometimes guilds manage to work past it, but in most cases recruiting under false pretenses will result in destruction. What you end up with is groups of people all with different expectations and goals, which inevitably leads to a split or at the very least widespread resentment.
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but comments calling other players “little kids” or saying outright that a large group of players tend to suck is a bit inflammatory
gearscore-toting elitist jerkwads
Now, having explained to you what a day in the life of a raid leader is like, you can begin to understand why:
1.These people are insane
2.These people are assholes
lol but im out of line talking about the kids who sit around and give other players a hard time ive been raiding icc on my main but when im on my alt trying to do some stuff they call me a casual and its funny to me ppl have to call them self hardcore or casual we are all just players at the end of the day playing a video game i think most ppl dont see wow as a video game any more and more the lines of a job or a life
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Therein lies the difference.
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this is a opinion piece
opinion piece is a piece of writing intended to promote an opinion or perspective.
all i was doing was giving my opinion do i think all hard core players are little kids that suck at the game no i dont that was just my perspective comming from so called hardcore players ive played with not all of them but some.
nice post keep up the good work
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I have no problem with your sharing your opinion. I have a problem with how you chose to share it. If you want to be outright insulting to other players, there are places where that’s acceptable, but this isn’t one of them. If you couldn’t understand the difference in context, that’s fine, but I’ve told you that what you said was not something I like to see in the comments. (Had you phrased your opinion with a bit more tact and courtesy, it would have been fine.)
I could simply have deleted the comment in the first place, but chose not to in favor of explaining why it was not acceptable in the hopes that you would understand and avoid such problems in the future and continue on with the discussion. Instead, that’s turned into completely derailing the original discussion which was not my intent. How I choose to manage the comments on this site and what is deemed appropriate or not is not up for debate, so arguing the point is futile. I don’t want to discourage people from participating in discussions here, but I also don’t want those discussions to turn into flame fests similar to what can be found on the official forums. People come here to escape that atmosphere, and I’d like to make sure that a friendly atmosphere is maintained.
You are free to dislike people if you want. You are also free to express that dislike. However, I expect that people will express those feelings with some measure of diplomacy or take it elsewhere. As far as I’m concerned, that’s the end of the matter.
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First off I’d to say what a great site this is and that I’ve been pouring over it for the past few days. I’m an oddity in that I’ve been playing WoW for roughly 2 months. Yep, I somehow avoided trying this game for as long as I have and then, somehow even more boggling, was a decided to give it a whirl at this point. But I’m very glad I did. I’ve just rolled a Draenei Hunter – Nariss on Scilla if anyone is around – after finally settling on a Pally that’s my main (tanking sounds like fun).
But, to the post at hand, it was very enlightening. A large group of my coworkers were hardcore players, starting right after the release of BC. One in particular, who’s started playing again because I started, was in a very serious raid Guild. And he’s gone back to doing what he needs to – farming Heroics for Gear – so he can take his spot back in their main raiding group.
Well, I was a bit put off after he started playing again as I had asked him for help, which he was more than willing to do. But, that drive to get back into his spot in his Guild took priority over helping a newbie. But your post has put his drive into perspective, the reason he plays the game. Which is very different from why I want to play WoW. I like PvE and am start to dabble in PvP. And I really like just experiencing the game (first time I was in Ironforge I kept running my toon into things because I was looking at everything around, the hugeness and coolness of it, and not where I was going).
So, thanks. Thanks for the great resource that this site is. And for the great post that has put a number of things into correct perspective for me.
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I love this post All I could think was, “OMG! Someone understands!” And, then, I read the comments and am on my way to multiple sights. I’ll definately keep reading!
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You have zero sympathy from me.
You can go on and on about stressful it is, how hard it is but at the end of the day, you chose to be there.
You chose the people you’re with.
You chose this game to play and, how you play it.
If a GAME is enough to warrant all this text, guess what, either Blizzard, or you, are doing something wrong.
You’re paying money to be stressed.
If you’re going to be this pounded emotionally and, this invested, get a high paying job. Get payed for it.
Don’t work all damn day, to come home and pay a monthly fee to work a second job.
That’s just stupid.
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I would like to agree with Jason’s statement, though the presentation is a bit inflammatory.
I understand that a person’s goals in this game can require them to raid in a hardcore fashion, but there is certainly a cost/benefit ratio involved. If part of the cost of your gear is becoming a different person in it’s pursuit, a mean-spirited, inflexible person, I would hope that one would find this an unacceptable cost.
I do not raid in any fashion, because I cannot commit to a regular play schedule (job and grad school commitments have to come first), but I do have in-game goals that make the it seem like work sometimes. That’s usually when I take a week or so off, and do something else that I enjoy. Jason’s point that this game is intended to be a stress reliever is important, I think. We all have plenty of stress inducers in our lives, and should be trying to reduce the number. Take a step back and re-evaluate your priorities before this games turns you, too, into an asshat.
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WTB Edit button for grammar mistakes and typos.
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I just have to say that i love this post because I am a casual player as well as a raid leader. This post is perfect as it gives insight to how we have to be during the raid because like it says if you allow everyone to do what they want nothing will get done. Now for my perspective on it because i am a bit of a permissive leader i allow everyone to do what they want to a degree were as if what they want isnt getting the job done is when i have to become the asshat that says its either this way or gtfo and yes i have had to do that but with the people in my group they are extremely understanding and are willing to do what needs to be done for the team. I mostly just wanted to say that anyone that reads this article finally has some insight on why a raid leader is the way they are and hopefully they can work to make the RL’s job a little easier.
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