Thunderdome. Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix vs Crossbow of Relentless Strikes.
Two bows enter. One bow leaves.
For Beast Mastery and Marksmanship hunters, the choice seems like a no-brainer. However, I’ve seen some Survival hunters, myself included, waffle over the decision: “Should I upgrade to the badge bow? Or just keep my Sunfury?”
The reason for the hesitancy is obvious: Sunfury has +19 Agi, Chocobow has none, and when you’re min/maxing to get every ounce of Agility you can, that 19 Agi seems like an awful lot.
Let the battle commence.
Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix
We’ll be using my current gear as an example. Here are my current (unbuffed) stats, with Sunfury equiped:
Agi: 787, RAP: 2081, Crit: 31.31%, Hit: 107 (Over the SV cap of 95)
Using the paperdoll DPS formula from the Hunter Guide Wiki, lets find my current dps:
MinimumDamage = 1*(46*2.9 + 1*((2081/14)*2.9 + 169) + 0)
MinimumDamage = 733.5
MaximumDamage = 1*(47*2.9 + 1*((2081/14)*2.9 + 314) + 0)
MaximumDamage = 881.4
Paperdoll DPS = ((733.5 + 881.4)/2)/2.52
Paperdoll DPS = 320.42
Now, lets find my dps when my current Expose Weakness buff is active:
MinimumDamage = 1*(46*2.9 + 1*((2278/14)*2.9 + 169) + 0)
MinimumDamage = 774.3
MaximumDamage = 1*(47*2.9 + 1*((2278/14)*2.9 + 314) + 0)
MaximumDamage = 922.2
Paperdoll DPS = ((774.3 + 922.2)/2)/2.52
Paperdoll DPS = 336.61 (Difference: 16.19)
Crossbow of Relentless Strikes
Now, lets calculate my dps if I had the crossbow equipped:
(Agi:768, RAP: 2060, Crit: 31.65%, Hit: 121)
MinimumDamage = 1*(46*2.8 + 1*((2060/14)*2.8 + 182) + 0)
MinimumDamage = 722.8
MaximumDamage = 1*(47*2.8 + 1*((2060/14)*2.8 + 339) + 0)
MaximumDamage = 882.6
Paperdoll DPS = ((722.8 + 882.6)/2)/2.44
Paperdoll DPS = 328.98
Now, with my “new” Expose Weakness:
MinimumDamage = 1*(46*2.8 + 1*((2252/14)*2.8 + 182) + 0)
MinimumDamage = 761.2
MaximumDamage = 1*(47*2.8 + 1*((2252/14)*2.8 + 339) + 0)
MaximumDamage = 921
Paperdoll DPS = ((761.2 + 921)/2)/2.44
Paperdoll DPS = 344.71 (Difference: 15.73)
Results
| Without EW | With EW | |
| Sunfury DPS: | 320.42 | 336.61 |
| Chocobow DPS: | 328.98 | 344.71 |
| Difference: | +8.56 | +8.1 |
Ideally, you would want the amount of difference in increase you see between the “base” DPS and the “EW” DPS to be about the same. In this case, the EW DPS increase is slightly lower than the base DPS increase (by 0.46), but not by such a noticeable amount. You will note, however, that despite the loss of Agility, in both cases (base and EW DPS), you saw a DPS increase (however slight).
But what about the difference in our Expose Weakness buff?
With Sunfury equipped, I had a base (unbuffed) EW bonus of: 196.75 AP
With the crossbow equipped, I would have a base EW bonus of: 192 AP
That’s a difference of: 4.75 AP.
My base DPS increased by 8.56, and my EW DPS increase by 8.1, almost double the AP my EW bonus would lose.
This then begs the question: “Is my 8.56 or 8.1 DPS increase greater than the amount of raid DPS lost by the drop of my EW bonus by 4.75 AP?”
Excellent question. Well, we’ve already determined that our own personal DPS would increase by making the switch. However, SV raiding hunters are there for a reason: to increase raid-wide DPS. Unfortunately, I’m not familiar enough with other physical damage classes to be able to spend an afternoon calculating out an entire raid’s worth of physical paperdoll DPS and comparing results based on 1) Base DPS, 2) Current EW DPS, and 3) “New” EW DPS.
Your Homework
For those of you who are not hunters, but are physical DPS classes (rogues, warriors, feral druids, etc), if you’d like to help out, it would be much appreciated. Here’s what I want:
1) Your usual (unbuffed) base paperdoll DPS
2) Your DPS calculated with my current EW buff (+196.75 AP)
3) Your DPS calculated with my “new” EW buff (+192 AP)
Please include a link to where you found the forumulas to calculate your DPS, (not only to fact-check, but also because I’m genuinely interested) and show your work (like I did above).
You can either email me your results using the contact form, or leave your results in the comments of this post.
Once I’ve gotten some feedback, I’ll continue this discussion and try to answer the question: “Is my 8.56 or 8.1 DPS increase greater than the amount of raid DPS lost by the drop of my EW bonus by 4.75 AP?”
Break out your calculators! 
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Great, great work, Lass. But this is why I am a BM hunter: I love “no-brainer” solutions!
Kestrels last blog post..Welcome to the New Nest!
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Hehe, it certainly does make life easier, doesn’t it?
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Yup im with kestrel, point and shoot ftw! Sooo much less thought involved and more game time! : P
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Lassirra,
there exists a very nice EW calculator already:
[url]http://www.anybrowser.org/wow/survival_guide.html#calculator[/url]
no info is given about he dps of the other classes. I guess though that the writer has done some serious readup, as he’s familiar with EJ.
PS, nice blog!
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Hi Lassirra
At the risk of exposing myself as having terrible math and missing some vital mechanic that would make this all pointless..
Then seeing as 192AP buff is 2.4% less then 196.75, that would mean an overall reduction of 2.4% in DPS I would assume (I could be totally wrong here and that would be for 100% uptime of the EW debuff)
All in all its not a huge amount but the bigger the group the greater the impact
For example assuming that a person does 1000DPS with your 192AP EW then with the 196.75 EW they would do 2.4% more or 1024DPS. Again this is all assumption and such but on that basis it would seem the 8.1 personal dps increase might not be worth it
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Kharthon — Thanks for the input. I think my reasoning behind not applying that same line of logic was that I was concerned that different classes calculate their overall dps differently. Or rather, that the other aspects of how their dps is calculated around their individual attack power, would be variable, and thus throw off the results if I used a sliding scale such as you suggest. In other words: I wasn’t sure if a uniform percentage increase of AP would account for all the variables involved in calculating physical dps for other classes.
Because I wasn’t sure, I wanted folks to try calculating it out. (And, as I mentioned, I’m not familiar enough with, for example, rogue dps calculation formulae, etc to do it myself–I wanted results from “the experts”.
) That way I could compare a variety of results, rather than simply make assumptions based on a formula (flat percentage increase, such as you suggest) that I hadn’t seen proven to be true. 
However, I do largely suspect your end result to be true, that 8.1 increase in personal dps will not be more than the net dps loss from the reduction in the EW buff. Therefore, for SV hunters looking to be a benefit to the raid at large (as opposed to those seeking only to increase their personal dps output), would likely rather pass on the crossbow and keep Sunfury.
Unfortunately, that’s still just conjecture at the moment.
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Your right, of course
Thinking it over AP does play a very different role, for example would 200AP do anything for a warlock ? I don’t think so somehow. Still since we assume their may be atleast one other hunter we know how their DPS will be effected.
On a side note, but somewhat related to EW, Have you seen that thread over on Elitest-jerks about kitting out a SV hunter in all sorts of odd stuff just to max out EW? I think they ended up with a theoretical max of about 1700AGI or so, you have to wonder what kind of impact EW would have at that level of madness.
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I actually don’t spend a whole lot of time on EJ, unless I’m looking for something very specific. While they have a lot of great information, and their community is extremely good at giving fact-based information (as opposed to opinion-based), I just don’t like the unfriendly feel of the place (which, mind you, is entirely personal preference, and I would still recommend their site to others), so I don’t spend a lot of time there. Also, I typically find it very difficult to find specific hunter information, which just frustrates me, lol.
I can see how it would be an interesting subject to cover though. In fact, just mulling over the possibilities now, I’m rather intrigued by the whole idea. I’ve done a little bit of work myself based on such a premise, but not quite to that extent. I’ll definitely have to go take a look now. You’ve piqued my interest.
As for AP and warlocks (to address the specific example you provided), the drawback to EW as opposed to Ferocious Inspiration is that EW only effects physical damage classes (FI effects all dps–casters included), not casters. So, if for example you’re running a 25 man with 12 dps, and 8 of those dps are casters, you’re going to see a much lower net raid dps increase from a SV hunter present than you would if you had a 25 man raid where, of your 12 dps, 8 were physical damage classes. This is why I asked physical damage classes to tally up their differences for me, rather than just giving a general request from any dps folks.
Unfortunately, folks seem as interested in doing homework now as they did in junior high, so I may have to do some digging and work up some numbers of my own to complete the discussion conclusively, if for no other reason than to satisfy my own curiosity at the moment.
Although, given the digging I’ve done so far, I can’t quite fathom why many on the official forums are saying the opposite–to definitely upgrade to the crossbow. While yes, you’re certainly giving your own dps a slight boost, it seems counter-productive to me if the cost is raid-wide dps.
Well, I’ll figure it out soon enough.
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here is my gut reaction (and it may be the wrong one):
so sunfury EW increases raid AP by 4.75, right? 0.68 dps on white damage (7AP = 1 DPS), plus some bonus to yellow damage. if we multiply the increase in damage from 4.75 AP by the number of classes which benefit from AP, and then factor in the % uptime, if the result is greater than 8.56*(EW downtime) + 8.1*(EW uptime), than sunfury is better.
now, to just make up some numbers to see how it would work out.
(i defend making up somewhat reasonable numbers for the sake of argument. basically, it is a set of what-ifs and thought experiments which can be used to clarify thinking. real numbers can be used, once we get the basic structure down.)
let’s say, for the sake of argument, that the 4.75AP adds 0.32 dps to yellow damage, just for ease of calculations. so 1 dps per person, while EW is up. now, i have no idea what uptime EW will have. let’s just say 67%, again, for ease of calculations. plus, i know some SV hunters will leave it at 2/3 points, since the 66% chance to proc EW is apparently good enough to keep it up most of the time.
so we have 0.67 dps * people effected. if that is greater than 8.24 (the weighted average of 8.1 and 8.52), than sunfury is beter. with around 11 other people in a raid benefiting from EW, sunfury is better.
but let’s be more generous to EW in a second example. if uptime is 90%, and it adds, say, 1.2 dps between white and yellow damage, with various buffs and such, then we have 1.08 dps per person, and if that is greater than 8.15, than sunfury is better. in that case, it is better if there are 7 other raid members who deal physical damage and would be helped by the EW buff.
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elitist jerks, like desolace or the barrens, is kind of a wasteland. don’t get me wrong, there are great quests in the barrens and desolace, but it takes doggone forever to get from one to the next. the theorycrafting on EJ is top notch, if you can find it, burried somewhere in 100+ posts on each thread, and *maybe* the initial post has been updated…
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Well first off, here is the link to the forum topic
http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t12346-hunter_survival_raiding_2_1_a/#17
Its pretty comprehensive and frankly has so much math my head hurts
Also in my playing I’ve developed a theory that their are Generous builds IE classes who through talents and abilities help others do more damage, and Selfish builds where you only care about boosting yourself and your own abilities.
As most people in wow are generally of a selfish mindset they tend to think only of their own abilities and stats as such to a person of that mindset an 8.1 dps boost to their own abilities is what is most important
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Thebitterfig — Thanks very much for your comments! First, I see where your line of thinking is headed, and it makes sense. To clarify (and I think you probably already realize this, but your wording was a bit ambiguous, so I’m clarifying more for the sake of others who may be reading along than anything), you said:
What is actually the case is that the difference between my EW buff with Sunfury equipped vs my EW buff with the crossbow equipped is 4.75, in Sunfury’s favor.
Of course, this is merely a semantic point, as the distinction really has little effect on subsequent calculations we may use.
Now, to address the assumptions you used in your comments (and I’m more than happy to play along with the suppositions, also for the sake of argument):
We have a 25man raid. Of those 25, we have: 5 tanks, 6 healers, 14 dps. Based on those facts alone, we can assume the following: at least 5 people are effected by EW (all tanks currently in the game deal physical damage to at least some extent, regardless of the fact that dps is not their primary objective) and 6 people are not (as a: casters are not effected by EW, and b: presumably healers deal little or no dps anyway). The variable, then, is the other 14.
You went on to say:
The reason I zero’d in on this particular example you used is because I think it’s likely a bit closer to accuracy in an actual raid setting. (With 40-50% crit rate, raid buffed, I see probably 99% uptime on EW.)
So, let us continue:
We know that 5 people are already effected by EW. With 1.08 dps per person, that puts us up to 5.4. Our goal, as per your example, is 8.15. With tanks alone, we’re already over halfway there, and we haven’t taken into account any dps yet.
We would need three more physical dps from our 14 total dps to be physical dps classes to hit our goal.
But, we already know there is at least one physical dps among the 14: the hunter him/herself. Now we’re down to needing two physical dps out of the 13 remaining slots.
Oddly, I have difficulty believing that a 25man raid would not bring at least one rogue or feral druid, for example. It is, of course, doable. I just think it highly unlikely. (Based not only on usefulness of various class abilities, but on server class population demographics as well.)
Given that, it would appear that Sunfury is the better choice. Of course, there’s a whole lot of assuming going on there, but I think in practice it would turn out to be largely accurate. (I would, however, love to be proven wrong, if folks have seen otherwise first-hand.)
Thanks very much for the discussion! I enjoyed it very much.
Kharthon — Thanks so very much for posting the link! I hadn’t forgotten to go looking, I just haven’t had much time to, and it appears you’ve saved me the trouble anyway. I’m going to take some time to look through it more carefully (only took a quick skim just now).
As to your theory, I think that’s a pretty accurate statement. I’ve observed much the same myself. It would be interesting to develop the theory further, actually, and also see how tanks and healers might fit into such an archetype.
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you hit the nail on the head with your clarification.
i just had a second thought, however. won’t physical-damage dealing pets also recieve the bonus from the higher AP from EW procs with sunfury? that ought to make hunter pets count almost twice, and help any felguard warlocks in the raid, too.
as to selfish/generous builds: it seems to fit. no one wants to be the one stuck spec’ing Imp Hunter’s Mark or Imp Expose Weakness, or such. most prefer the *other* hunter or rogue get that talent, so we can get efficiency so we have more mana to pew pew.
however, my gut says that raids would fail if everyone went generous. sure, two shaman could stack windfury and grace of air, but it just makes more sense to get one shaman with WF and one rogue. a great example was something i was reading on criticalQQ, where an arcane mage was able to put out 2200 dps, when fed by two mana tide totems, an innervate, and a heroism (with the note that an extra heroism and innervate could add up to another 500 dps).
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I have a good question concerning this arguement of sorts. You compared both the Sunfury Bow and the Crossbow of Relentless Strikes, but what of the Barrel-Blade Longrifle that drops from World Boss in SMV ? ? ?
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@Meerclar – The point was that it was more or less a personal exercise. I wanted to know which was better between these two for my own purposes. I chose to post about it specifically because it was the subject of debate on the official forums.
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