Lament of the Casual Raid Guild

Well posed Lass,

As I am sure you would agree, I am uber-casual and rather n00b-ish, thank G*d for that rock, scissors, paper contest or I would never have become GL!

But the the most important thing is if the person listens and changes. Yragon has been going to Gruul because I fit a niche. Dief has pointed out my, rather glaring, flaws taht were hindering me, and more importantly, the raid. I spent the time and gold to re-gem 60% of my sockets in order to make myself better. There is still more to be done but I have taken the advice and know what needs to be done

If the person in question refuses to listen to guidance, or cannot seem to pull it together, it probably is in everybody’s best interest, in the long run, for leadership to talk to the person and tell them why they are not getting invites and what they need to do to fix it. Will it suck? Yes. Will it be something leadership will want to do? No. But does it need to be done? Heck yeah.

I am very happy to say the officer corps of TK, former members included >cough< were always willing to step up and help people who needed guidance. I am thankful for my officers EVERY day.

/ramble off
-Skar

Not that long ago.. I was Terribad Raider. Not in the “I make mistakes all the time” way, but in the sense that I wasn’t bringing my A game to raids, ever. I would have told you at the time that I was, but really, I didn’t know any better.

Then someone started posting WWS reports on our guild forums, and I got to see what my “A” game looked like. It wasn’t pretty. At first I was in denial. I wrote my CL, asking.. I’m not really THAT bad, am I? *anxiety anxiety anxiety*

She said no no, you’re not THAT bad, you could improve, yes, but this and this and this reason say that I’m sure you’re not that bad at all. Don’t worry about it.

But I did worry about it. And worry about it, and worry about it.. were other people talking about me when I wasn’t around, making jokes about how bad I was? *PARANOIA*

I can say now though, that I got my stuff together at that point. I went to a trusted source (BRK) and learned from the ground up what I really needed to be doing.

I know what my A game looks like now, and I bring it to every raid. But I know what you mean here, with people who just won’t listen, who are there to do their own thing, no matter what suggestions are given. And I have to say, sometimes it just takes some brutal honesty to wake people up to the reality of their game and the fact that they NEED to do something about it.

In short, I agree with you.

Skar — There is a distinct difference between folks that either don’t know any better or just haven’t been trained, and folks that, despite training and help, still SUCK HARD. As you know, I have always said that I am willing to do whatever it takes to help someone improve, as long as it doesn’t become apparent that I’m just wasting my time. If people are willing to watch, listen, research and practice to improve their performance, then it’s worth the time to help them do so. It’s people who are blissfully ignorant and wish to remain so that bother me. It’s also people who, despite their best efforts, still suck LOTS that I think are ultimately a detriment to the group. In one case, the individual is to blame; in the other, no one is to blame. The end result, however, is the same. They’re a liability.

In a casual atmosphere, though, it’s difficult for people to step up and say “Despite attempts to improve, this person is a liability to the group and should be not allowed to raid”. Also, I’ve noticed that people who are generally more widely liked are allowed to skate by, whereas people who may not be as popular but have the same raid performance short-comings are generally “put in their place”, which I think is an unfair double-standard that is all too prevalent in casual guilds.

This entire situation brings up what some casual guilds consider a “hardcore” attitude towards raiding that makes them uncomfortable. Many believe that by placing limitations and restrictions on raid attendance, they’re becoming more hardcore and opening the door for other similar practices that may not be in the best interests of maintaining their casual foundation. Obviously, it requires tact, diplomacy, and a firm belief in what is best for the guild as a whole (while maintaining it’s original mission statement). Walking the line between hardcore raiding and casual gaming is a difficult balancing act, and I have yet to encounter a casual raiding guild that does it perfectly.

Asara — As I mentioned, there is a HUGE difference between folks who just haven’t been taught (or figured out for themselves) how to maximize their performance, and folks who are just genuinely all-around BAD. Handling those players is always a difficult thing for casual raiding guilds, it seems. More often than not, it does seem to me that guilds are willing to try to work with people when their performance doesn’t appear to be up to par. Guilds frequently have Class Leads or Raid Officers that are willing to take the time to give one-on-one advice on how players can improve. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, not everyone can adapt and change to improve their performance, and you’re invariably left with players who are just genuinely awful in a raid environment. That isn’t necessarily something they should be looked down on for, but it is a weakness that needs to be properly acknowledged and accepted by the parties involved for a team to progress, both in a raid environment and within the bounds of casual interaction within the group.

It’s certainly a tough issue to address, and more often than not, it seems to be handled pretty poorly, one way or the other. I still cannot fathom why that is the case, except to say that imperfection is human nature and it’s impossible for people to respond appropriately (or the way someone may like/appreciate) all the time. Certainly, though, there are options available that are worth exploring.

Fantastic post. Whenever I have tried to bring up performance related issues with raiding members of our casual guild a common response is “this is just a game”. I can’t tell you how many times I have heard that. It is their security blanket and is something they can always fall back on.

Gothyelk — That’s partially the crux of the issue. Many raiders are frustrated over being forced into raiding with people that are obviously a detriment to overall raid performance, but whenever these concerns are voiced, the common response is “This is just a game” or “We’re casual”, which are convenient excuses that do nothing. And, because leadership is unwilling or unable to address the issue properly, the problem will continue. People will continue to be frustrated, and people will continue to engage in the passive-aggressive behavior described above.

Casual raiding guilds have an INCREDIBLE turn-over rate, which is something I’ve definitely taken notice of on Medivh. People guild-hop between casual raiding guilds of similar progression-range constantly. And, I would be willing to venture a guess that many of their reasons are commonly-shared, and likely relate to this very issue.

I believe that the heart of the issue likely lies in a genuine desire on the part of all involved parties to avoid confrontation and keep the peace. These are noble intentions, but inevitably are counter-productive, at least the way they’re being executed currently. People need to accept the fact that, sometimes, you have to be cruel to be kind.

Leadership is always a lonely place. Decisions aren’t easy, and they will always be questioned, whether it is vocal or not.

What should a leader do? The right thing to do would be to bench him until he improves. They’re job is not to be nice (that should be someone else’s job), but to take the hard decision (Leaders will always get the flak regardless).

The ideal situation is that someone else help him. If he don’t want to be helped, then it was his choice to stay benched. The other person might get mad, but on the very least, the leader should be honest about it.

I think while hard honesty is the best policy - and your probably doing more harm for the player by not saying anything, but what a good leader will do is besides telling them that they are doing wrong is tell them how to fix it, or lead them on a path to fix it -, or find creative solutions, even if for the person you mentioned is that in a dps situation have them target one other player and hit F. So they are always targeting the right target,

I agree, honesty is the best policy. Being an Officier in a couple of “casual” guilds, I have run into these problem several times. In my current guild we have changed our moniker from “casual” to “social” as when we do anything as a group (raid, run instances or group PvP) we want to be able to do the best that we possibly can. One was a Warlock who couldn’t out DPS a tank; another was a Holy Paladin who couldn’t heal a regular Ramparts run at 70; and a third was a BM hunter who was always breaking CC himself or with his pet in Kara. All three players had the same mind set of I am doing “good enough”, “nobody ever said I was a problem before”; many were not willing to ANY research on the game in the form of reading any blogs or boards and were unwilling to improve how they played the game. All were told that they needed to improve to continue running with us; however, none improved, got extremely frustrated with not getting any runs and eventually gquit.

In terms of the “its only a game” mentality, my response is that for a lot of WoW game content, that the fun 4, 9 or 24 other real life people get out of the same game are directly related to how that player plays the game. This is especailly true of all end game content.

[...] had a great post on The Lament of the Casual Raid Guild. The particular situation to which I am referring involves allowing a member of a casual raiding [...]